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Abigail Trafford: Welcome everybody. Join us for a frank talk about the birds and the bees. Reports suggest that sex education is not providing the kind of information and support that youngsters need. What do you think? Send us your comments and questions.
Abigail Trafford: Debbie, welcome to the show. Today the Kaiser Family Foundation announced a study about sec education in schools. A majority said that sex education should start in the fifth grade, that many parents who wanted their children to pospone intercourse until marriage also wanted them to get information about dondoms and other birth control devices. Teenagers said they were not getting information they wanted about what do do if cases of rape or assault, how to get tested for STDs, how to negotiated with a partners about sex. With all of that, what's wrong with sex education in schools today?
Deborah Roffman: The major problem for years has been that sex educayion programs tend to be designed around the needs and ideas of adults, before the first child even strs foot in the classroom. To really meet developmental need, we must start with what the children themselves say they need and want to know.
Portland, Maine: It seems like MTV and TV would be a big factor in how kids view sex and what is right in terms of what is "acceptable" in society. Look at shows like Melrose Place where everyone is jumping in bed with everyone else and "switching." Also, MTV is all about sex and videos. TV is much more prevalent now than when I was growing up. How can we protect our children from this? Kids think their parents know nothing about what is current or cool. "Everyone is doing it, Mom"; So it seems they are more likely to follow their peers than listen to their parents. All you need is two "cool" kids swapping on the bus and suddenly it becomes the in thing, not yucky. What is a parent to do?
Deborah Roffman: Actually, contrary to what they may communicate, kids really are looking to parents for values and standards. Parents need to roll up their slevvevs, clear their throat and jump in to help kids process what they are seeing around them in the popular culture.
Jacksonville, Fla.: I agree with you! I think society is moving backward. My 11-year-old was watching a children's show on a cable channel one Sunday morning and there was a commercial on. It said, "This commercial is rated BB for bare bottom," then they showed a naked man lying face down on a massage table getting slapped on the behind. This was at 9:30 a.m. during a children's show! This world is going to pot! I am thankful that my daughter can and has asked me questions about sex and relationships. (I recently had to explain to her what Viagra is.)
Thanks for letting me put my two cents in.
Abigail Trafford: Do you think pop culture has gotten worse in the past decade? What's more dangerous--actual scenes of sexual activity or the attitudes towards sex?
Deborah Roffman: Good for you--that's exactly what you need to do. Each child actually needs his or her own cultural interpretor. Or else, how are they supposed to be able to tell the good messages from the bad and the truly awful. If we don't give our view, peer and media culture will just fill the vacuum. The viagra example is a great one--there are topics in the news all the time that provide teachable moments.
Washington, D.C.: How soon should you start discussing the mechanics of sex. Should that happen before the emotional/moral discussion?
I supossed if we all still lived on farms, the mechanics would take care of themselves!
Abigail Trafford: I have a close friend who teaches kindergarten. She says kids want to know about "sex" early on. What is age-appropriate?
Deborah Roffman: Actually children as young as 4-6 will gradually begin to ask questions about their origins. At four they tend to ask where did I come from, at five, how di I get out of there, and at six, how did I get in there in the first place! Parebts can always bring in the conept of love and marriage at this stage, but if they keep the cahannels open by focussing on the child's immediate questions they'll set the tone for a discussion that will go on for years and years.
Washington, D.C.: How effective are sex ed programs that advocate only abstinence? Do they help kids?
Deborah Roffman: The date clearly show that these kinds of programs have very few short term effects, if any. What does work are programs that combine an abstinence message combined with more comprehensive messages about methods of disease and pregnancy prevention.
Abigail Trafford: Debbie, today in the Health section, I write about an incident that happened on a school bus for middle school. A girl was sitting in a boy's lap and french kissing. Across the aisle another girl was sitting in a boy's lap and kissing. Half way through the bus ride, the girls swapped. They got up and changed places and started french kissing again. What's going on here?
Deborah Roffman: Actually, the one thing Bill Clinton may have been right about in the midst of the Lewinsky scandal was that we Americans really do think only of sexual intercourse as "real" sex. Other behaviors we refer to as just"fooling around." We inadvertently give kids (and everyone) the message that behaviors other than intercourse don't "count"--therefore, we're not morally accountable for anything else. No wonder kids get the idea that short of intercourse, there are no standards to worry about.
University Park, Md.: Hello Ms. Roffman,
Do any D.C./Baltimore-area jurisdictions teach kids about fertility? I get the impression that some people are surprised to discover that getting pregnant is not always the inevitable outcome of unprotected sex -- contrary to what they were scared into believing in sex ed. For people who want but can't have kids, it's a tough realization.
Deborah Roffman: Sexual and reproductive information is actually quite complex. The menstrual cycle--during which a woman is only fertile for a brief time--is very confusing for kids. Why must they be protected at all times if the egg is only present for a brief time? Plus, as you've said, we confuse kids when they're are young by virtually equating sex with reproduction. We do this because we are really uncomfortable teaching them about the pleasure aspects. So in short, the complexities of the subject matter combined with young minds that think rather simplistically and with embarrassed adults has made skilled teaching very difficult. Even when schools address these topics, all these complexities need to be kept in mind.
Chevy Chase, Md.: But it's quite a leap from the "mechanics" of sex, the "precautions" re sex, and a "morality" (don't do it 'til marriage) to a discussion of, say oral sex. I'm particularly concerned about what the "oral sex" phenomenon does to girls' self-images: it seems to be approached as "just another thing to do to please guys," and has few other connotations (at least in the give-and-take of discussions among 14-year-old girls).
Deborah Roffman: I'm not sure what you mean by "leap." All of these subjects are potentially embarrassing because they involve talking about explicit sexual topics. But that's just what we need to do if we want to stay ahead of media and peer influences. We wouldn't tell young childre--there's a great big wide thing out there with lots of dangerous objects going back and forth at great speed and think we'd done a good job of teaching them how to safely cross the street.
Abigail Trafford: What are the elements of a good sex education course? What should parents be asking for in a program providing sex education?
Deborah Roffman: The most important feature is that the course be focussed on sexuality, not sex. Sex is a behavior that involves body parts. Sexuality has to do with who we are as thinking, feeling, decision making, valuing, caring, communicating human beings who happen to have certain body parts because of our gender. The second most important feature would be activities that would enhance the students' ability to communicate within themselves and with each other about sexual topics. Another would be a strong encouragement to communicate with parents--studies consistently show that children whose parents communicate well about this subject grow up slower. For example, they delay first intercourse and handle their sexual relationhips of all kinds more responsibly.
Abigail Trafford: Back to the incident on the school bus. The behavior bothered me---not just because kids mistakenly believe that anything short of intercourse is ok--but because of the swap. Swapping partners seems to say that sexual activity is so casual, random and disconnected from feeling and romance that relationships and a sense of self are not important. What do you think about the swapping behavior?
Deborah Roffman: I shared the article today with my upper school students at Park. One in partiular was very disturbed by the swapping behavior because it indicated that kids are not being taught any kinds of clear boundaries about sexual behavior, and that's it's totally without meaning. She said the whol thing made sick as she thought about her younger siblings and their friends. My idea is that we need to talk about ALL sexual behaviors on a continuum of intimacy--from kissing to intercourse--and that the same human values of self respect and caring for others should apply to all.
Van Ness, D.C.: re: to whom to talk?
As kids get older, there is a need to separate from the parents on some level; to think their own thoughts. Do you have any thoughts on talking to other adults about some questions at times? I'm an uncle, not a parent: I find that my 9-year-old nephew will talk to me about things that he won't with mom and dad. Is there a template for this kind of discussion in other cultures?
Deborah Roffman: Michael Gurian, author of A Fine Young MAn and The Wonder of Boys takes a very helpful cross-cultural perspective. He points out that particularly for boys in this culture there is very little direct mentoring and channeling regarding their emerging sexuality. He advocates a whole community approach--with clear puberty and adolescnet rituals--that you's probably find very interesting. We in this country have created a prolonged adolescence during the previous century but no real mechanisms for helping young people manage this new phenomenon.
Washington, D.C.: Have you noticed that campaigns to get kids to abstain from sex, alcohol or drugs never acknowledge that having sex or getting high could be pleasurable? Of course, it's understable why that's the case -- you don't want to encourage kids to indulge in harmful behavior -- but it strikes me as dishonest to leave the pleasure out of message. For one thing, kids aren't dumb. They know when they're not getting the whole picture. So, wouldn't a more effective antidrugs message be "Yes, drugs can get you high, but it's just not worth it"?
Abigail Trafford: And a more effective sex education message might be: sexual intercourse can be pleasurable, but you're not ready to engage in sex. Or maybe, you are not in kind of situation and relationship that will lead to a good sexual experience-- Debbie, What do you think about the importance of recognizing the pleasure of sex?
Deborah Roffman: It is dishonest and our hypocrisy really turns them off. We are afraid to be too positive--for fear of that old bugaboo that if you tell about it they'll run right out and do it. (As if they don't know from their own bodies that sexual feelings are pleasureable!) We should start this way: "Sexual behavior is extremely pleasurable, and it (especially sexual intercourse)is also extrememly powerful. These are things we hope you experience one day, but because of the power you'll need to wait until you are mature enough in the following ways." Some parents will also want to add: "And because of our deeply held personal, family, and/or religious beleifs, our best advice is for you to wait until you are married." That kind of message sure beats "Don't do it or I'll kill you, but if you do, be sure to use a condom!" The long message works especially because it starts off on a positive.
Abigail Trafford: Debbie, what books would you recommend to parents and children on this subject. And tell us about your book that will be published in January.
Deborah Roffman: One of the best new books for parents is From Diapers to Dating by Debra Haffner. Books by Robie Harris for elementary and pubescent age kids are also very good (parents will want to take a good look at the Harris books before purchasing because they are very comprehensive). My book is focused on much of what I've said today--about taking a broad and long developmental view of children's emerging sexuality from birth through high school and beyond. What I hope parents will find reassuring is that it is focussed around five core, universal developmental needs and their corresponding adult roles. These same five needs are present from birth on and the book helps parents identify them, understand how they change over the years and how they can best respond at different ages and stages of development. I think if they get that down they're prepared for almost anything!
Abigail Trafford: There are times when kids don't want to talk to their parents about sex--and what they are or are not doing--and there are times when parents can't get through to kids. Where can they turn for help?
Deborah Roffman: This is another good reason for programs in schoools. Parents Should not be expected to do this job all by themselves and they should lobby schools to provide support. Especially at ages and stages where the subject is just "too close" for comfort, a caring but less personalized environment like a classroom--with lots of good peer input and a skilled teacher--can provide wonderful suppport. This is not an either/or proposition; especially when the subject of sexuality is defined broadly, parents, schools, religious groups, media, etc, all have a role to play in support healthy growth and development.
Washington, D.C.: I have participated in as a counselor in an excellent sex education program through my church. The program starts at exactly the point you make -- the difference between sex and sexuality, where our sexuality comes from and that it is a part of what makes each of us a unique person. What struck me was that the teenagers (high school age) all had the "sound bites" (i.e., abstinence, protect from disease not only pregnancy, etc). But when they were asked to describe a relationship that would make them comfortable having sex, they could not identify a single characteristic -- they said "marriage," but couldn't come up with what it was about marriage that would make sex OK. They really don't have the context for making decisions. It reminded me of how kids can test high on vocabulary comprehension, but can't answer an essay question! The other point that the kids made was that if their parents wanted them to talk about "big things" like sex, then they shouldn't "freak out" about all the little things like not getting all "A"s.
Deborah Roffman: The values that we want our children to have revolve around abstract concepts--caring, responsibility, mutuality, privacy, love, honesty, etc. Kids--clear into high school--think primarily concretely. I'm not surprised by your experiences. Unless we make these concepts concrete--with lots of clear and relevant examples--kids will have the words but won't be able to apply them or even recognize them (or their opposites) in day to day experience.
Arlington, Va.: The point about STDs is a good one. So many are rampant -- and any sexual activity is a risk. Therefore, the likelihood that anyone who is sexually active will contract an STD is pretty high. While of course the focus should be on prevention prevention prevention, shouldn't we be teaching kids how best to deal with STDs as well? It's a mistake to assume it's an issue everyone doesn't have to deal with.
Deborah Roffman: We have in a sense over-educated kids and evrybody about HIV and undereducated them about other STD's. This is very scary because the numbers of kids with these infections is much higher than the number with HIV (although these figures too will only inrease). Most of my students can't even name the two most common ones--chlamydia and genital warts--because they get practically no media attention.
Washington, D.C.: Deborah, As a single mother who grew up in a single-parent household with a mother who was sexually active and open about her sex life, I'm still unsure about how to go about tackling this issue and presenting my "sexuality" to my daughter. I think of sex as a natural, physical and emotional necessity; and although I am sexually active, I have kept this aspect of my life hidden from my daughter. Meaning, although I would love to bring a man into my home, I have yet to do so. Any suggestions?
Deborah Roffman: The details of a parent's sexual life are private. However they certainly can share the things thy've learned about sexuality through life experience. It's OK for kinds to know their parents are sexual beings, but they need to be clear about the values they are communicating (directly as well as inadvertently) by their own choices and behaviors.
Bethesda, Md.: I was disturbed when I called up WashingtonPost.com and saw the teaser "Kids and Sex."
Society has spent so much time sexualizing children. There are just certain things that kids under the age of 10 should not know. What they are told should depend on how quickly they are developing and when they hit puberty.
Sex education is best left to parents and should be done in the home or a physician's office and not in school. I believe it is as a private a matter as religion. I am not a prude by any means, but promoting the sexual education of children at a young age is asking for trouble and depriving them of their precious years as children.
I generally pull my daughter out of school when sex educators come in to give "talks" because I strongly believe that it is no one's place except mine to teach her about such important and intensely private matters.
Deborah Roffman: Schooils can and are importan vehicles for reinforcing parental values. Classsromms are not "anthing goes" environments. Many values that parents approve of are discussed time and time again.
Abigail Trafford: Alas, we've gone over our time. We could talk about this for hours and hours. Sexuality is important to all of us--no matter what our age. (Topic for another health talk.) Thank you Deborah Roffman. Thank you all for your comments and questions. Join us next week, same time, same place.
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